Hey guys, welcome to our new board software. You'll need to re-register to post.

The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

User avatar
Phaseknox
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by Phaseknox » Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:46 pm

isthatallyougot wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:43 am
Yes, phase, I know you're pro accessibility. You've made that repeatedly clear. :P But my question was. would you omit an element that you saw as integral or cater to the crowd's voice? You're just talking about difficulty options again. I'm asking if you would stick to your own vision for your game or bend against audience pressures.
No, I wouldn’t bend the knee and omit anything that I felt was an integral part of my game, and I never suggested that I wanted any developer to do that. I’ve been talking about adding options, not omitting anything from a game’s default experience. So the real question is would I add something optional separate from the default experience to cater to the crowd’s voice, and my answer is yes. As long as my vision of my game is intact by default for anyone and everyone who wants to play and experience it exactly how I intended it to be played and experienced, then I wouldn’t have a problem with including some options within reason that might make people appreciate and enjoy it more based on their personal preferences.
isthatallyougot wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:43 am
It's been discussed many times, here and elsewhere, but FROM's games *DO* have difficulty options, fwiw. Yes, it's not an overtly selectable menu option, but it's in there. You've got a virtually endless selection of build/weaponry/magic/armor combinations. If you're not good up close, you can spam from a distance as well. Yes, sometimes it's still tough, but even if you don't have the hand-eye capacity and you can't be arsed to dig into all the intricacies of build-options, you can *still* brute force the games into submission via over-leveling. I'd call it boring to take that approach, but you can farm experience from enemies you *can* handle until they're no longer problematic and keep gradually building. My point is that the games are accessible to most anyone, it's just a matter of approach. If feels like you, as acknowledged, just simply don't have the patience for games that require the type of investment that FROM's main series asks of its players, and that's fine.
I understand that, and it’s part of what makes the whole one challenge for all experience of FromSoftware games feel like their thing based on how they do it. However, other developers don’t always tend to nail it quite like FromSoftware does, so it doesn’t always feel as fine-tuned in their Soulslike games. But regardless, I personally like to have a somewhat easier go of it in games in general because putting in the kind of work required to play through Soulslike games is exactly that to me... work. And that’s why I would like the option to lower the difficulty a bit so that I can still enjoy all of the aspects that I like about them (world, exploration, discovery, combat) without the constant frustration of always having to give it my all every step of the way, and having to redo the same sections and bosses over and over again.
isthatallyougot wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:43 am
My only issue with your position is the idea that *any* game developer *OUGHT* to include variable difficulties be default - that it should be some sort of industry standard, more or less. I mean, what do you do when you read a book and don't understand the themes and concepts that are presented. Should the writer/publisher include a synopsis as an addendum explaining everything to the reader just to make sure that the message was accessible to all? I mean, the idea that everything needs to be - or even *CAN* be appreciated by all disregards the reality that we're all different and we'll all find resonance with different harmonies and vibrations in this experience called life.
Your book analogy is a pretty good one, but reading is a passive activity as opposed to an interactive one. I feel that things are a little different when it comes to games, because they’re interactive. They’re not quite as straightforward as understanding the meaning of something as they are about actual player reflexes, skill, patience and tolerance. These things differ for each individual which is why accessibility options in games exist. With that said, I’m not demanding that every game have them just that I would like it if they did so that I could play and enjoy every game that I have a personal interest in from a content and gameplay standpoint.
isthatallyougot wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:43 am
You say you can't enjoy Souls or many other games of that ilk, so what?
The point is that I like everything about them except for their hard difficulties, so I want to play them but can’t really enjoy them for that reason. It would probably be the same for you if they offered no challenge whatsoever, wouldn’t it be a shame if that was the case and you couldn’t enjoy them strictly for that one reason? Wouldn’t you like to have the option to crank the difficulty up so that they would be a more appealing and satisfying experience for you personally?
User avatar
isthatallyougot
Posts: 973
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:52 am

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by isthatallyougot » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:16 pm

Phaseknox wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:46 pm
No, I wouldn’t bend the knee and omit anything that I felt was an integral part of my game and I never suggested that I wanted any developer to do that. I’ve been talking about adding options, not omitting anything from a game’s default experience. So the real question is would I add something optional separate from the default experience to cater to the crowd’s voice, and my answer is yes. As long as my vision of my game is intact by default for anyone and everyone who wants to play and experience it exactly how I intended it to be played and experienced, then I wouldn’t have a problem with including some options within reason that might make people appreciate and enjoy it more based on their personal preferences.
It's a matter of semantics. You're wanting the omission of an element that the developers consider integral to the overall experience - the element of a singular difficulty.
Phaseknox wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:46 pm
Your book analogy is a pretty good one, but still in reference to a passive activity as opposed to an interactive one. I feel that things are a little different when it comes to games because they’re interactive. It’s not as basic as a simple understanding of something as it is about actual player reflexes, skill, patience and tolerance. These things differ for each individual which is why accessibility options in games exist. With that said, I’m not demanding that every game have them just that I would like it if they did so that I could play and enjoy every game that I have a personal interest in from a content standpoint.
Books are not passive experiences. The engagement is on a mental level rather than mechanical, that's all. Just because you learned to read on a fundamental level as a child, does not mean that concepts and explorations of ideas are within your reach simply because the words on the page registered in your mind as you read them. Again, is an author obliged to spell out everything for everyone just because his message might be impenetrable for some readers? To me, it's a very similar set of circumstances. There is often content that may be inaccessible for many, maybe even most, and yet the labor of unlocking that falls upon the reader rather than the author.
Phaseknox wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:46 pm
The point is that I like everything about them except for their hard difficulties, so I want to play them but can’t really enjoy them for that reason. It would probably be the same for you if they offered no challenge whatsoever, wouldn’t it be a shame if that was the case and you couldn’t enjoy them strictly for that one reason? Wouldn’t you like to have the option to crank the difficulty up so that they would be a more appealing and satisfying experience for you personally?
I would be disappointed if FROM altered their vision for their flagship series by sacrificing their design principles in order to cater to an audience that must have a selectable menu option for the idea of challenge, yes. It would be an unnecessary "dumbing down" when there are already so many ways to approach the challenges present in their games. And for me, the sense of opposition adds meaning and is rewarding. It's not push-button-get-pretty-cutscene that is so predominant in mainstream gaming.

But, I would in no way consider my preferences to have any bearing on the creators decisions. I'd shed a tear for a once great franchise and play the old versions or other games that do resonate with me. Or maybe I'd still enjoy their new vision. The difficulty is far from the only appealing aspect of Souls to me. The art, lore/narrative, sound, level and enemy design - wow there's just so much there for me. In whatever case, I wouldn't waste my time bemoaning the fact that a developer made a game the way they chose to make it. That's their business. Mine is to seek out and play what I find enjoyable and let the rest go.
Image

Dragon kick your a$$ into the Milky Way!
User avatar
Phaseknox
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by Phaseknox » Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:08 pm

isthatallyougot wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:16 pm
Books are not passive experiences. The engagement is on a mental level rather than mechanical, that's all. Just because you learned to read on a fundamental level as a child, does not mean that concepts and explorations of ideas are within your reach simply because the words on the page registered in your mind as you read them. Again, is an author obliged to spell out everything for everyone just because his message might be impenetrable for some readers? To me, it's a very similar set of circumstances. There is often content that may be inaccessible for many, maybe even most, and yet the labor of unlocking that falls upon the reader rather than the author
Fair enough, although I still feel that engaging and interacting with something on a mental level and on a mechanical level are somewhat different since one is cerebral and the other is physical. You make a good comparison here, but the fact still remains that books and video games aren’t the same things that are interacted with in the same ways. Also, difficulty settings have been offered in video games since their inception so it’s not like they’re some new unheard of feature to be included in them. Therefore, I don’t think that it’s all that unreasonable for people to request to have them in games when they’ve been a standard in them for so long.
isthatallyougot wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:16 pm
I would be disappointed if FROM altered their vision for their flagship series by sacrificing their design principles in order to cater to an audience that must have a selectable menu option for the idea of challenge, yes. It would be an unnecessary "dumbing down" when there are already so many ways to approach the challenges present in their games. And for me, the sense of opposition adds meaning and is rewarding. It's not push-button-get-pretty-cutscene that is so predominant in mainstream gaming.

But, I would in no way consider my preferences to have any bearing on the creators decisions. I'd shed a tear for a once great franchise and play the old versions or other games that do resonate with me. Or maybe I'd still enjoy their new vision. The difficulty is far from the only appealing aspect of Souls to me. The art, lore/narrative, sound, level and enemy design - wow there's just so much there for me. In whatever case, I wouldn't waste my time bemoaning the fact that a developer made a game the way they chose to make it. That's their business. Mine is to seek out and play what I find enjoyable and let the rest go.
My question was meant to be taken how would you feel about FromSoftware games if they only offered a singular easy challenge from the very beginning, not how you would feel about them starting to do it now going forward. You say that the difficulty of them is far from the only appealing aspect of them to you and I understand that, but it’s also a big part of why you do in fact like them as much as you do. I’ve also stated numerous times that I like everything about them except for their hard difficulties, so we’re in agreement that there’s a lot more to them than just their difficulty. I just know that they’re some of your favorite games, but would they still be if they originally had a singular easy difficulty instead of a singular hard one? Probably not. The point that I’ve been trying to make is that FromSoftware games and Soulslike games in general would be some of my favorite games as well if I could tone down the difficulty of them a bit to make them more reasonable for me to play and enjoy based on my own personal skill, patience and tolerance levels when it comes to games. Some of my favorite games over the years probably wouldn’t be my favorites if I wasn’t able to lower their difficulties at least a little.

You’ve explained why you don’t feel that FromSoftware games should have difficulty settings in them, and I totally get where you’re coming from and respect your opinion. But at this point I think that we’re probably just going to have to agree to disagree, because it kind of feels like we’re running around in circles not getting anywhere. You feel the way that you feel, and I feel the way that I feel. We’ve had this same discussion before, and I brought it up again because I was upset by the fact that Wo Long: Fallen Dynasty is yet another really cool looking third person dark fantasy action adventure game that I’m interested in that’s unfortunately adopting the Soulslike design formula of only offering one singular hard difficulty to primarily appeal to FromSoftware game fans.

Oh well, it’s not like I don’t have plenty of other games to play. Speaking of which, I’ve noticed that you haven’t purchased any games in a while. Have there just not been any good deals that you’ve been interested in, or is there another reason? I’m just curious because for a while there you seemed to be buying games every day. :P
User avatar
isthatallyougot
Posts: 973
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:52 am

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by isthatallyougot » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:04 am

Phaseknox wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:08 pm
My question was meant to be taken how would you feel about FromSoftware games if they only offered a singular easy challenge from the very beginning, not how you would feel about them starting to do it now going forward. You say that the difficulty of them is far from the only appealing aspect of them to you and I understand that, but it’s also a big part of why you do in fact like them as much as you do. I’ve also stated numerous times that I like everything about them except for their hard difficulties, so we’re in agreement that there’s a lot more to them than just their difficulty. I just know that they’re some of your favorite games, but would they still be if they originally had a singular easy difficulty instead of a singular hard one? Probably not. The point that I’ve been trying to make is that FromSoftware games and Soulslike games in general would be some of my favorite games as well if I could tone down the difficulty of them a bit to make them more reasonable for me to play and enjoy based on my own personal skill, patience and tolerance levels when it comes to games. Some of my favorite games over the years probably wouldn’t be my favorites if I wasn’t able to lower their difficulties at least a little.

You’ve explained why you don’t feel that FromSoftware games should have difficulty settings in them, and I totally get where you’re coming from and respect your opinion. But at this point I think that we’re probably just going to have to agree to disagree, because it kind of feels like we’re running around in circles not getting anywhere. You feel the way that you feel, and I feel the way that I feel. We’ve had this same discussion before, and I brought it up again because I was upset by the fact that Wo Long: Fallen Dynasty is yet another really cool looking third person dark fantasy action adventure game that I’m interested in that’s unfortunately adopting the Soulslike design formula of only offering one singular hard difficulty to primarily appeal to FromSoftware game fans.
Yeah, I know we're not going to see eye to eye about this, ha. My ears don't pop up in high alert about too much in gaming or life, but I've always had a thing about respecting creator freedom, be it the written word, film, games or art of any other kind. We don't have to like what others create, and of course we're free to criticize, but to desire or expect they create something in a different way just because we don't like it rubs me the wrong way, and I get a bit "activated" (don't want to say triggered, lol) by such sentiments, sentiments that (to me) come across as spoiled entitlement. It just scratches at a place within me like a mosquito that won't stop buzzing in your ear. :P
Phaseknox wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:08 pm
Oh well, it’s not like I don’t have plenty of other games to play. Speaking of which, I’ve noticed that you haven’t purchased any games in a while. Have there just not been any good deals that you’ve been interested in, or is there another reason? I’m just curious because for a while there you seemed to be buying games every day. :P
Oh, I've just not kept up with posting about it. I got lazy. :P
Image

Dragon kick your a$$ into the Milky Way!
User avatar
jfissel
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:18 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by jfissel » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:57 pm

canedaddy wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:03 pm
Let me know how that is. I thought it was the only mainline Professor Layton game I haven't played, but Google tells me I also missed the Last Specter on DS.
I'm sure it'll be like all the others in gameplay, though I have no idea where this particular story is going since I'm not far in.
Image
User avatar
Phaseknox
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:20 pm

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by Phaseknox » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:40 pm

isthatallyougot wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:04 am
My ears don't pop up in high alert about too much in gaming or life, but I've always had a thing about respecting creator freedom, be it the written word, film, games or art of any other kind. We don't have to like what others create, and of course we're free to criticize, but to desire or expect they create something in a different way just because we don't like it rubs me the wrong way, and I get a bit "activated" (don't want to say triggered, lol) by such sentiments, sentiments that (to me) come across as spoiled entitlement. It just scratches at a place within me like a mosquito that won't stop buzzing in your ear. :P
I totally get where you’re coming from, because I’ve always been against censorship. I don’t feel that an artist or creator should alter, or change their work to appease anyone. But I’m also not against there being edited versions of things like music albums and movies that remove things such as profanity and nudity/sex scenes from them as an option for people who might prefer not to have that particular content in them or in order to make them acceptable for radio and TV.
User avatar
isthatallyougot
Posts: 973
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:52 am

Re: The Backlog Check-in Vol. 247: 9/24/22: FIFA 23/The Legend of Heroes: Trails from Zero/Valkyrie Elysium Edition

Post by isthatallyougot » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:09 am

Phaseknox wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:40 pm
I totally get where you’re coming from, because I’ve always been against censorship. I don’t feel that an artist or creator should alter, or change their work to appease anyone. But I’m also not against there being edited versions of things like music albums and movies that remove things such as profanity and nudity/sex scenes from them as an option for people who might prefer not to have that particular content in them or in order to make them acceptable for radio and TV.
I hear ya.
Image

Dragon kick your a$$ into the Milky Way!
Post Reply